HELP!! Which HORSEMAN 4x5 should I buy....????

I am thinking about buying one of two Horseman 4x5 monorails - either

the plain L45 model or the next one up with base tilts. My question

is: Does anyone have anything to say about either one? I will be

doing both architechtural and field photography(like the backpacking

kind). I am considering buying a regular field camera in about

another year or so. Also, I dont really understand the purpose of

base tilts. Can someone enlighten me, please??!!? Any opinions,

experiences, or anything else for that matter, is greatly welcome!

Why Horseman? Why not Sinar, Arca-Swiss, Linhof, Toyo or Cambo?

yeah I would wonder that also. The Horsemans weigh in at about 11-14lbs. Kind of heavy to be draging around. Why not a Arca-Swiss, Linhof TK or Toyo VX125. These cameras are in the 7-8lbs range

Why do they call it a Horseman, because you need a Horse - Man! I agree with the others, unless you can get a smokin deal, I would look at other units before you make your purchasing decision. Shop around and ask the camera store guys lots of questions. Assuming they know something about what they are selling.

 

For a monorail I bought a Cambo and it's worked really well. Even backpacked it for a while before I got a field camera. Now I do 95% of my stuff with the field camera. The one I got was a little known Toko (not Toyo). It has all kinds of back adjustments many of the other wooden field cameras don't have.

 

I've never seen another one and I can't find any info on the web, but it's a great camera.

 

Eric

I have a Horseman 45 FA (field camera). It's well made ... BUT, the lensboards are small and they restrict the size of lens that you can use. Like the above posters hinted at..... Look around first.

 

dee

I've thought about the TK - but, they are almost impossible to find used in Japan(which is where I am for the time being), and they are a bit more than I can afford right now. They Arca Swiss, for some reason, is also really hard to find. I'll try looking a little more, but I really haven't seen any used ones for sale.

 

BUT, what I really need advice on is 'base tilts'. Of what use are they are compared to axis tilts? Are they easy to use? Can you give me some examples of when you use them?

 

Thanks again!

Jeremy,

 

Good advice to look around at other camera makes. In the studio weight won't matter but in the field it will.

 

As far as base tilts versus axis tilts, try this with the base tilts and then axis tilts on the Horseman, or any other model camera with both type of tilts.

 

This is a situation which comes up often in the studio shooting products and also when shooting architectural photography.

 

Zero all movements. Aim the camera down at about a 30 degree angle from vertical. Using the base tilt, tilt the back up until it is level and vertical. Now tilt the front standard up, using base tilts until it too is vertical and level. The front and rear standards should now be parallel to each other.

 

Now swing the lens to the right....then swing the back to the right the same amount. The front and rear standards should be parallel to each other, with the back somewhat higher than the front. Base tilts are what keep the front and rear standards parallel when both equal tilts and swings are applied to the same degree.

 

Try the same movements with an axis tilt and the front and rear standard will not be parallel because of the initial tilting down of the camera and because the pivot point for the swings is not near the pivot point of the lens axis tilts.

Base tilt cameras are yaw free. You get yaw distortion if you use tilt and swing movements at the same time. Yaw free cameras can be very useful for product photography. The basic Horseman LE is not yaw free, the Sinar F1 is. One reason to get the Horseman LE camera over the Sinar F series is the geared controls. I owned a Sinar F1 and it was a nice lightweight monorail camera but the controls were a bit slow to use compared to the geared movements of the Horseman LE. The Sinar also had plastic parts that would easily break if you over tighten. The Horseman LE is heavy but it is infinitely easier to use for architectural photography specially if you intend to use movements to fine tune your image. The comparable Sinar would have to be the Sinar X or P. I would not take the Horseman LE backpacking unless you have a very strong back or an assistant to cary the rest of the gear. A field camera or an Sinar F1 and a carbon fiber tripod may be more suitable.

If you've ever picked up a ten pound weight to put on a barbell,

you know then what the Horseman LE model weigh's which is

about a 1/10 of a pound under that. I wouldn' t call it killer on a

Gitzo carbon fiber. If the price is right, your not hiking long

distances, and your not a wimp ass, buy it and enjoy. If there

was a "L" model then maybe that was heavier. Btw, you don't

need base tilts. It's easier to use axis tilts. Save the money and

the weight.

"Base tilt cameras are yaw free. You get yaw distortion if you use tilt and

swing movements at the same time."

 

Not so.

 

A camera is yaw free when it has a tilt point BENEATH the swing point. For

instance the old Linhof Kardan B had both base and center tilts and was not

yaw free. The current GT and GTL Kardan cameras are yaw free because the

base tilt on these cameras is beneath the swing point.

 

Most yaw free cameras have a lower tilt point that is used to align the camera

after tilting the rail. The camera then uses a second tilt mechanism for

adjustments to the image. In the case of a GT the second tilt is on axis, in the

case of the GTL it is continuously assymetric, in the case of the Sinar P system

it is assymetric.

 

What kind of tilt does not make the camera yaw free, Where the tilt is does.

 

In any case any camera that is yaw prone becomes yaw free when swung

over 90° and used on its side. Any camera that is yaw free becomes yaw

prone when swung on its side.

 

And no one can tell if a photograph was made with a yaw free or yaw prone

camera and the vast majority of all large format cameras are taken with a yaw

prone camera.

 

Having represented the manufacturer of the world's first yaw free camera

(Linhof Kardan) for almost 24 years I can tell you that it really isn't the first

thing you should look for in a camera.

Thanks everyone for your responses. You've given me a lot of useful information to think about. I am leaning towards the less expensive(a lighter!) of the two.....

I own the L 45 and it is very heavy. Yet despite the weight still has advantages because of this on location. The main reason is strong winds particularly in a downtown area between tall buildings can effect the image sharpness. You won't need the base tilts 90 % of the time. The bellows construction is very rigid but flexible enough for swings and tilts. The geared micrometer movements for precise focus and sliding locks are convenient. The L 45 is a quality camera without the Linhof/Sinar price tag including accessories. Compare prices! You pay for the name and add in the exchange rate. The L 45 is a great value. Many times I have overheard Clients making jokes about other Photographers shooting with vintage cameras. My thoughts were "I wish I had one" but the Client's perspective was entirely different. IE. Where's the flash powder? I didn't know this when purchasing the camera. My criteria was function, ease of use and value.

 

 

If you want a field camera for backpacking, buy it separate specifically for backpacking in mind. The prices for used 4x5 field cameras are cheap and plentiful. Recently I purchased a prestine used field camera for an aerial shoot that cost $900. Prices average from $300. to $700. depending brand and condition. Shop around for the best deal!

 

Nelson